“We like to talk big, vampires do. ‘I’m going to destroy the world.’ It’s just tough guy talk. Struttin’ around with your friends over a pint of blood. The truth is, I like this world. You’ve got dog racing, Manchester United, and you’ve got people. Billions of people walking around like Happy Meals with legs. It’s all right here. But then someone comes along with a vision. With a real passion for destruction. Angel could pull it off. Goodbye, Piccadilly. Farewell, Leicester bloody Square. You know what I’m saying?”
-Spike in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, “Becoming, Part 2,” Season 2, Episode 22
This speech and scene are a favorite of mine from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, partly because “Happy Meals with legs” is a phrase I wish I’d written myself and partly because Whedon craftily points out the ridiculousness of believing in villain after villain who says he wants to end the world while also asking his audience to believe in a villain who says he wants to end the world. If you have watched all the episodes leading to this moment, you’re invested in it. Spike comes into this show as someone as evil as we’ve met, but, by this point, Whedon and company have slowly tricked the audience into relating to him. It’s because he’s witty and charming and has that fantastic British accent, but it’s also because Spike loves his (undead) life. He loves his girlfriend. He likes to hang out and have a few drinks. Who doesn’t? This is a villain I believe in.
I mention all this because while I enjoyed watching The Dark Knight Rises, I couldn’t take Bane seriously. I had a hard time understanding his dialog at times (particularly that football game scene, which was pivotal), which took me out of the movie when I was struggling to just kind of keep up with the plot. I don’t think we can blame Hardy for this: as Brandon and Jeffrey have pointed out, he was menacing. That mask that made him hard to understand is also creepy as hell. The art direction throughout this series is outstanding and compensates for weaknesses in the writing and overall vision. In the end, though, and even with the twisty spoilery plot development there toward the end, I did not believe that this man would kill himself along with everyone in Gotham. I didn’t see what was in it for him, I didn’t think any of the rationales he provided (that I could understand) had weight, and I never felt worried that things were going to end badly.
In making another point, Brandon brings up the scene where the police charge into a crowd of anarchists on the street. This is a moment when the film lost me. Brandon likens it to scenes in other films, and isn’t it a scene in countless films? It’s a visual cliche, like some moron standing on the top of a hill throwing his hand in the air shouting “Freedom!” or “Sparta!” or “Victory!” or whatever. And oh my gosh, can we be done with extended scenes in which everyone has a big fight that destroys New York City (as it is or thinly veiled)? I felt this way watching The Avengers, too. I was with that movie until we got to the big showdown in the city, and then I was like, Ho, hum, like I haven’t seen this five million freaking times. In The Dark Knight Rises, I wondered yet again what good it is to save a city by knocking down all its buildings and bridges and killing goodness knows how many innocent bystanders in the process.
To me, the most emotionally charged moment in TDKR, when I really felt worried, was when the goons caught Joseph Gordon-Levitt’s Blake in the alley. Blake had taken a risk to do something quietly good, and he was so alone there and in a type of danger I believed–the kind people face all the time in this world, facing down someone who means them harm. I thought he might die. I continue to love that Gordon-Levitt. He and Hathaway anchored this movie for me.
I am, as you guys know, a Nolan fan, but I’ve struggled to like this series. I thought Batman Begins was boring, so the callback to that in this film didn’t work for me at all, as I barely even remember the plot. Watching TDKR, I realized, too, that what I truly enjoyed about The Dark Knight was Heath Ledger’s Joker. I don’t remember the plot of that movie anymore, really, either, but what I do remember is believing that the Joker was deeply mentally disturbed and capable of doing just about anything. That’s how you craft a villain. I think there’s a lot that’s worthwhile in this movie and this series, in some of the issues it explores, but I wish it had relied less on cliche, which is crazy hard to do when you’re dealing with superheroes, but then there’s Watchmen (more the book than the film, which was fine but not great).
But, okay, so we all rely on cliches, and if there wasn’t something to this film, I would not have written this much about it. I’ll take mediocre Nolan over excellent Michael Bay every time. There is an attempt to say something here, and it explores some issues effectively: ends and means, the long-term toll of violence (on the perpetrator as well as the victim), the nature of heroism, and what the heck should we all be doing with our lives.
Regarding the twists and the ending–HERE COME THE SPOILERS–I thought Bruce Wayne’s final moment was both kind of a cop out and completely comforting. I think him going out in that explosion might have been a more authentic ending for that character, but, as I think Jeffrey said, I like thinking that healing is possible. The other final-moment twists with Blake and Miranda were unnecessary and showy. At least it didn’t turn out to be the plants behind everything.
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19 Comments
I enjoyed the Miranda twist because I totally should have seen it coming from a mile away. That twist is such a major part of the Batman mythos that it should have been obvious from the start.
Joseph Gordon-Levitt was fantastic in the movie. I loved that Blake was the moral center of the movie and held Gordon and Batman accountable for what they’d done.
There was one thing in the movie that threw me right out of the movie, but it’s a minor thing and I don’t want to maybe spoil it for other people.
I want to see this movie again and really just sink into it.
I have to read this for real instead of skimming, but my biggest problem with the film, and ultimately with this version of the character/world is that once you tell the audience that it’s going to be “real” you have to extend that aspect throughout. This is a very difficult thing to do within the dynamic of comic book superhero/supervillian. They are only “super” because of the outrageous or extraordinary things they do, both good and bad. But fantastic and spectacular don’t necessarily lend themselves to reality. If you accept that in the first film all the crazies in Arkham get released into the streets of Gotham, then it makes sense that in the second film the Joker has a willing and able army of nutsos at his disposal who might be able to pull of his crazy schemes. But rigging vast numbers of strategic points in the city to blow up by putting explosives in the concrete all while managing to win the contracts to critical urban projects that allow you isolate the city on a moments notice (all while managing to capture the entire police force in one stroke). And who is this army of thugs and crazies that Bane commands? Where did they come from and what do they get out of it? The politics are drawn way too broadly and yet so much of the plot hinges on our belief in that political dynamic. All the weaknesses could be easily dismissed by chalking it up to being a comic book, expect for the fact that Nolan, et al have gone to such extreme lengths to have us accept that the technology and circumstances are real. You can’t depart from that without justification or explanation and there’s way too many things that we are expected to believe. These concepts are presented without being earned. That’s a big failure in this third film.
Still, I did really enjoy it and want to watch it again a few times to absorb it all. While I ultimately think the whole series fails at a basic level, there’s much to enjoy throughout it. The second film, kind of like Godfather II, is pretty close to a masterpiece. It’s deftly handled, frightening, and most of it makes sense.
Chad, I have to say, we all walked out of the theater saying, “I did not see that coming.” And I appreciate a film that surprises me. I’m kind of hyper-vigilant and tend to see things coming, but this was a film that surprised me a bunch of times. It kept me thinking.
I’m not well-versed enough in Batman lore to know what’s what.
Joseph Gordon-Levitt does very consistent excellent work, and people don’t seem to notice him. I’ve really started paying attention to him.
Jeffrey, You should have gone to see Moonrise Kingdom.
And, yes, many valid points there. I really questioned Bane’s followers’ single-minded devotion. I think it was supposed to call to mind some terrorist-type activity, but it doesn’t work without some backstory.
I went expecting to see a comic book and that was what I got.However,I was distracted and finally didn’t care about what mumbles had to say.Instead I wondered if he was drooling under there.My generation saw the comic then the tv Batman.The tv Batman was funny.And silly.
This modern Batman took himself pretty seriously until the magical end where he was just a guy again enjoying his riches;)
I did wonder how Bane eats. I’m often preoccupied with food.
SPOILERS………
Bane’s takeover of Gotham bothered me a bit during the movie, but by the end of the movie it made sense to me.
Bane is a distraction. Where Bruce Wayne turned himself into Batman, Talia/Miranda created Bane to distract while she went about her work. I think they did enough to show that over the past eight years she’d become a power player in Gotham. Certainly rich enough and powerful enough to manipulate events and hatch a plan like this.
I think the people Bane was leading were mercenaries and assassins he’d worked with over the years and League of Shadows people who were loyal to Talia.
What happens in Gotham is an extension of what Ras al Ghul was trying to do in the first movie. Destroy Gotham- a ridiculously corrupt city- as a starting point in a plan to bring “balance” to the rest of the world.
That is a good point.He looked well fed.But how?
Chad, I should have reviewed the plot of the first movie before I went and watched this one. Things might have made more sense to me if it had been fresher, but it really has been a while.
Momster, I KNOW, right? No wonder he was cranky. He probably has low blood sugar.
I didn’t mean to be a spoiler.Sorry.I always think that everyone knows the plot this far after an opening.But maybe not.
You weren’t cranky when you had low blood sugar.You just passed out.Still,some people do get cranky they say.He was a troubled,mumbler guy for sure.
I watched both films right before seeing the new one. Especially glad I did in light of how the League of Shadows, et al plays so heavily into the story line. Plus I got to see how good the 2nd movie is again. It’s really, really good. That sequence of Joker driving the police car wildly through the city after he escapes just sums up so much of the chaotic and very frightening nature of the film — madness come to life coursing through the veins of Gotham.
Oh, and maybe I’m missing something here, but who is this other Jeffrey you keep quoting. You aren’t allowed to have other Jeffreys in your life without my approval.
And Chad, not to be disapproving of the rundown you gave, but Bane’s crew mostly felt generic to me. Perhaps it was a leap of mine to think that the crazies released at the end of #1 come back in #2 as Joker’s henchmen, but since they bring up Joker at the end of #1, it was a leap I think they were allowing the close observers, ie nerds, to take. What convinced me too was that for as many of them as there were, their quantity seemed somehow more plausible. Bane’s men may be exactly as you said, but they also seemed to be endless in numbers. For there to be that many so willing to give up so much and alter the world so drastically calls for an ideology that the film just didn’t present. Instead, it’s just the standard issue disposa-bad-guy coming out of every nook and cranny when needed.
Adrienne, I kind of liked the gladiator battle, but it did seem anachronistic and cliche. For a world that goes to such lengths to be explained in such detail and given as wide a scope as possible, having two relatively small groups going at it hand-to-hand in the climax was diminutive. And of course, like all good gladiator movies, the two people representing the best and worst get to go against each other while not one of the underlings interferes. Nolan is smarter than that, so I couldn’t get why this scene even existed here. Totally took me out of the film.
Other Jeffrey is from Film Club. I can maybe try giving him a new name. I was calling him Film Club Jeffrey for a while, but that’s a lot to type, and I have a repetitive strain injury and all. He goes by Jeff, too, so I suppose I could just distinguish between the two of you that way, drop the “rey” for him.
Okay, one more and I’m done:
What has always worked about Bane, for me anyway, is that the mechanics of how he survives are never explained. I was glad they didn’t do some kind of cheesy CGI thing with him, but I was also kind of surprised that they didn’t enhance him physically much at all. I don’t follow the comics, but I’ve avidly followed the animated series versions over the years (there’s three different contemporary takes on the Batman story). He starts off in one version as a mercenary Luche Libre wrestler who uses the face mask thing as a sort of human nitro inducer. They don’t ever go into details of what the substance is, but it often makes him bulk up to huge proportions. There’s a similar take in the second animated series, although I don’t much remember the Luche Libre portion. The point is, he’s always been presented as a physically unstoppable almost half man, half beast part cyborg thing created by the drug pumped into his body. The lack of explanation has made his appearances more menacing — if you don’t know what makes him strong, how do you know to what limit his strength will go? It’s a similar reason why Joker is usually more of a caricature except in Nolan’s version — if you don’t understand why he’s crazy, how will you know what depths of madness he’ll exhibit? In either case, it’s harder to fight an enemy with an unknown variable at their core.
Anyway, as for Bane, I was somewhat disappointed that he never took on the physically menacing portrait he has in other versions. I was really looking forward to how Nolan would solve that and instead he just chose to avoid it. There’s not even a sense that the mask does anything other than keep him alive, ala Darth Vadar.
I’d never even heard of Bane until this movie, and I’m not sure how I feel about the nitro inducer thing. I did want more of an explanation of that whole mask business, though.
Not many people have heard of Bane, which is another reason I was looking forward to him being in the movie. I like that they’ve chosen to feature the “secondary” villians in this series. Well, they’ve avoided Penguin, which is a relief.
Bane is the weakest part of the film as far as I’m concerned. And I’m with Chad, once the Talia twist was revealed, I was actually disappointed in myself for not seeing it coming. It probably would have helped if I’d rewatched Batman Begins beforehand. I did rewatch Dark Knight, and Jeffrey L’s absolutely right, it’s a masterpiece. It stands on its own apart from the other two. And as Greg says, it’s not just a good superhero film, it’s a good crime noir film.
As far as Bane’s army, I got the impression that he was joined by ne’er-do-wells from off the streets in addition to his League of Shadows flunkies. He made a call for people to join him at the stadium, so that part made sense to me. The world is ending, and you were on your way to life in prison anyway, so why not join up with a madman? Especially if he’s going to give you a gun.
My favorite part of the experience was seeing it at the IMAX, and watching as Nolan switched back and forth between an IMAX camera and a regular camera. I don’t think I’ve ever seen formats mixed like that before, but then, I don’t go to the IMAX too often.
We watched the regular screen version, so we missed any of that.
While watching one of the first two, the format kept switching from wide screen to an almost pan scan aspect ratio, but the resolution never changed. I thought I was crazy, but maybe that was the result of the imax flip.
And also you’re crazy.